Interview with Lauren Christy of The Matrix

Interview conducted June 14, 2004.

Originally published at

Did you expect to become a producer?

No, not at all. Being an artist, all I knew was that I was incredibly interested in it. Apart from the songwriting, which is a whole different thing, the way the finished product would sound…it could so easily go wrong for me. That was [what] initially caught my interest. I thought, “I’ve gotta make sure this one doesn’t go off track.”

When you’re a songwriter, the first couple of times you have a song covered by somebody else, and they mess it up. I guess that’s when you start coming to that realization. How did you actually get into music production?

First of all, I was a songwriter. When I was 18 I was signed to EMI publishing. I thought, “Well, I want my songs heard so I guess I’m going to have to be an artist.” EMI bought me a little four-track recorder. I had that setup in my bedroom at home. I did all my little demos at home, bouncing tracks and all that stuff. In those days it was like, “And then when we get you a deal, you will work with a male producer who will make the record sound amazing.” And that’s what I always thought: you would go work with a man. It was great. I never thought there was anything wrong with that at all. In the meantime, people would say, “Wow there’s this little cool magic about your demo on the four-track.” And I never realized that was production; I just thought it was me trying to get the song out.

Sure enough I got a deal, and started to work with lots of different male producers who were all wonderful in their own way, and I’m sure I drove most of them really crazy by being so involved. Saying, you know, “Something doesn’t sound right there.” I came to America and made two albums for Mercury Records, and the second album I got a production credit on because I was so involved. I was involved from the kick drum pattern. So I just felt like I deserved it. So did my record label and my co-producer. Then I had a rude awakening that it’s really hard to be successful in this business, and the stars don’t always align for you. I was 27 years old. It was time for me to start thinking about not being an artist. I wasn’t the ingénue any more.

I met Sandy Roberton and he was trying to get me a new record deal. I went over to England to meet some people and I remember on the way back on the plane I realized I was too old for this. That was really a turning point for me, where I faced reality and realized I didn’t want to be an artist anymore; I wanted to be behind the scenes. My husband, Graham, was in a similar situation, where he had done all the touring in the world — he’s the best bass player in the world, fantastic songwriter, had his own band. But the band put a record out and it hadn’t happened due to change of label heads and all that stuff; all that bullshit that happens in the business. And another guy in his band, Scott Spock, who is now our partner, he had been doing remixes and saw that he couldn’t go any further with that. So the three of us decided to do this project, and see what it would be like to form a production company. We were very businesslike about it. We found a couple of girls and we gave them a production contract to sign, because we heard all these stories that that’s where you get screwed over. We had no money. We were really worried — it was all out of desperation.

The three of us got these two gorgeous, beautiful actresses who could sing a bit. We got them in the studio and realized we could make quite a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. As nice as these girls were, it was really hard to get a good vocal out of them. And we found with me really working on vocals, with them and Scott and Graham working on all the other aspects of it, the three of us would sit up until four in the morning really tweaking the track, layering the guitars, making this huge production, managing to carve out a place for their weak vocals until they sounded really fantastic. At that point Sandy said, “Wow, this is amazing!” He said that Ron Fair was looking for something for Christina Aguilera’s Christmas record, and asked if we could write something. We stayed up all one weekend and knocked out a song, and that was our big break. Ron Fair loved it and said he wanted our version and that he would co-produced with us for the record. That was it. We kind of got plugged in straight away.

What was the song?

“This Year” by Christina Aguilera.

Was he in the studio with you a lot?

Not at all. Christina was on the road touring for her first record, and she was going to knock out this Christmas record really quick. They followed her around with a portable studio. We did the track and Ron was on the road with her doing all the vocals. Ron’s amazing. Then the three of us got together with Dave Pensado and Ron and mixed it. It was a real a co-production. We learned from the best. I’m always grateful to Ron because he gave us that big break. And from there, having a really great manager is the most important thing a producer can have. The three of us were feeling a bit like losers in the music business. Sandy was like, “I’m going to make you the most successful writing/production team in America” and we were like, “Yeah, right!” And then when things started happening for us, we were like, “Wow this is fantastic! Maybe he’s right. Maybe we could become big.” He just never stopped being enthusiastic.

It’s interesting to me how production teams are mostly composed of the same gender and yours is not. I can’t think of another three person mixed gender team. Can you tell me about that?

I can’t talk highly enough about my partners. Graham’s my husband and we refused to work together for years. We’ve been together for seventeen years but we’ve only worked together for the last five. We decided, for our relationship, that it was better not to work together. But when we tried it with the two girls, it just clicked. And with Scott, he’s a genius and he mediates between me and Graham so we don’t fight. So that’s how it works. I think what it is is that we all really respect each other. If we’re in a situation where Scott and Graham say, “You know what Lauren? We really think that lyric is not right,” or, “Your idea of starting with a breakdown version of the chorus for the intro is just wrong,” if we disagree, we have this rule that if it’s two against one the two win. It’s very democratic. And we fight a lot. Maybe with two people it would be hard to decide but with three it’s kind of black and white. We’ll play these games in the studio and I’ll start screaming, “You’re wrong! You’re wrong! You’re wrong!” I’m hitting the table and I can actually manage to get one of them on my side and then I win. We figure that whoever feels so strongly about it that they can get one more person to tip the scales, then that person wins.

You’re right. It’s a lot about the passion. It’s not about majority rules. Sometimes you should go with who has the most passionate belief.

The other thing is that we listen to music so differently. Scott is so schooled in arrangement and his whole background is hip hop. He can also do great string and vocal arrangements because he studied music. He can hear the real intricacies in music like the hi-hat pattern is fighting the vocal or something like that. Graham comes from playing in his Dad’s band when he grew up in Scotland and he knows every genre of music inside out. He can write a song in two minutes. He’s just amazing. So those two can listen and say, “These guitars aren’t right, it has an old school feel and it doesn’t work with the song.” For me, I listen, literally, as a punter. I let the whole thing wash over me. If I’m not feeling it, I’ll say, “You know what? I just can’t move to this.” That’s a big thing. Even if it’s a rock song I have to feel like I’m in the groove. I’ll say, “I get into the groove on the eighth bar of the first verse but bars one to seven are not doing it for me.” And then we go in there and start analyzing it.

I do get into why it’s not grooving. “OK let’s mute this or mute this.” One of the reasons I love working with Scott and Graham is because when I was working with all the different male producers on my records, I remember when they used to mute things on the board and I’d say, “That’s great.” They’d say, “But that’s just the bass, the vocal and the kick.” I would say, “But it sounds so great.” They’d say, “But you can’t put the track out like that, you’ve got to fill up all the holes and everything.” One of the things I love now about, say, the Neptunes, is that they will put something out that is just so stripped down. With Scott and Graham was the first time I felt I could put a verse out with just acoustic guitar, vocal and the drums. All the keyboards and everything else would be missing. I thought that was fantastic. And then we’ll go down to just a bass line.

I really think it’s about what you don’t put in. Obviously we are all inspired by Mutt Lange but sometimes the vocal is the most powerful thing to me. And being able to hear the lyric with the groove — that’s all I really care about.

What do you think is the most important component in a hit?

I’ve done a lot of analysis of this. I have a collection of hit songs that were never hits on my iTunes. To me they were still hit songs but the person got fired at the label or the right indie promotion people weren’t put on the job. There are a horrible lot of things that are outside the control of the artist.

Manfred Mann thinks that never happens. He thinks that if it wasn’t a hit, it wasn’t going to be a hit. I agree with you. How often do you think that happens?

I’d say probably 95% of the time.



There are that many hits out there that just miss because of outside reasons?

Oh God yeah! There are songs that are fantastic. Things that are a big hit in Europe and not here because it doesn’t fit the format of what radio is playing right now. There are so many songs where I think, “Oh my god, that should have been a smash song, that’s a classic song and nobody ever got to hear it.” It is like finding the needle in the haystack, having the stars align, and having success in the music industry.

There’s songs I still think we have that are big hits but they never came out because of problems with the record label or the A&R staff got fired or the artist got dropped. We had one artist who everyone at the label believed in. The CEO of the company sat everyone down and said, “This is a priority, this is going to be the big one.” The A&R man called us and said congratulations and you guys are going to become millionaires on this record. Never heard from [him] again. Dropped. (laughs) It’s just so funny. Of course, we thought those songs were hits.

What’s funny is that if you do write a good song, it kind of doesn’t go away. People come round and cut them again and they get their second chance. Sometimes you get bands that aren’t that great, but they have that one song. Talking about that one person we were talking about earlier — an artist that I produced many years ago that Lauren knew about— there were a couple of hits there, but the timing wasn’t right. or the person pressed that self-destruct button. But there’s a lot of sad things that can happen; the wrong person, the wrong time. As for what makes a hit, for me [it] is the right label, the right president at the label, the right melody, the right lyric that’s emotional — to me it has to be an emotional lyric — it has to be the right artist, the voice is very important. And then we have added a sixth thing for this day and age which is the image, which has to be there. You can’t be Janis Joplin today. I definitely think today with Avril, we had the right label, LA Reid was totally ready to kickass with her. He heard “Complicated” and said “Oh my goodness, this is amazing!” Then you add the voice, the right lyric at the right time to capture the teen market, and the melody being stupidly catchy. And then her face, with that voice. The stars aligned for her.

You’re the first person I’ve ever spoken to who has put the right label and the right president before the right song. Most people I know that I respect put the song first but in many ways that’s probably the truest thing.

At the end of the day, like we said, there are millions and millions of hit songs sitting in people’s drawers, on old CDs.

As a producer, how do you make sure that happens? Like you said you do a record for a label, everyone is totally enthusiastic and then they either just screw it up or get fired.

I think you get into a very dangerous guessing game when you start trying to analyze if you should do a project because it’s this person at this label. I never do that. All we try to do is concentrate on the creative side of it. Everyday go to work, be creative, love what you do, put 100% into it, and hope the stars align. It’s out of my control.

We just made The Matrix record for Sony. Somebody asked me the other day, “How important is this to you?” and I said that I’ve had my heart broken before over records when I was younger. Now I’ll never be attached to anything because it’s out of your control; once you’ve made a record and put everything into it, it’s totally out of your control. After that it’s down to the label and the president and the promotion department and whether that artist is going to press the self-destruct button. I have to cut off passion for that a project. If I turn on MTV and see it then I regain enthusiasm and think, “Yeah it’s happening.” But most of the time I think, “I’ve done my best, there’s nothing I can do now.”

Maybe it is just me, but I always get a quiet satisfaction from having a number one. But I could never get super excited because I was always thinking about the next one by then.

Yeah. You are only as good as your last hit and that is the truth. Right now Avril Lavigne is the furthest thing from my mind. I’m actually thinking about a girl called Lindsay Bugano right now, and a band called Kill Hannah that we’re about to produce. You’re on to the next thing.

How much do you think that is a true statement that you are only as good as your last hit, and how much time do you think you have if you have a few failures?

Probably not very long at all. I think it’s OK if you make a record and it gets critical acclaim, at least if it gets good reviews. It’s really not at radio. It’s really the buzz within the industry. I know if we send a song to a label and the label hears it and says, “Oh fuck, that’s it — that’s the key to the door,” that’s worth more to me than having chart success. It’s vibing the labels up so they feel, “OK, we go to The Matrix because they deliver.”

Do they change their attitude if the record fails for other factors, or do you think that people are more aware of how many different parameters can contribute to the failure of a record?

I think right up to when it can get fucked up by the President of the label it does just come down to the song. Right up to the release date everyone is still saying, “Oh my god this is a hit song.” Then someone can drop the ball after that. As I say, all I can concentrate on is the song and the production and blowing people away at that point. Touch wood, we’ve had a lot of success, since this whole exciting thing started to happen for us and it has been fairly ongoing.

Definitely, you are on a run, you have to make hay, it’s a great time for you guys.

Even though we say we shouldn’t analyze which labels are the right labels to be doing things for, what we do analyze is not wanting to be known as people who do this kind of music. We are quite strategic about what we choose to do.

Well, you just did the Hilary Duff thing, didn’t you? When you venture into the blatant pop thing sometimes it can hurt you. Do you worry about that hurting you with the more credible acts? I don’t want to offend Hilary Duff so I won’t mention her if you don’t want.

No no no, I don’t mind if you do because what I’m going to say is incredibly nice about her. We’re talking about a kid who is an icon. This girl has her own credit cards. It’s kind of a movement. When you get asked to come in at the very end of a record and get asked to write some hits it’s kind of flattering. You know what? I just put on my creative head with the guys and think, “If we are going to do this, do it really well.” I love the three songs that we wrote for that record. The first one was the first single “So Yesterday.” I love it. I love Bananarama. I’ve got nothing against pop music, I think it is an art in itself.

Me too, I think it’s a high art, but it has this perception in the industry.

That’s why we just finished The Moony Suzuki record for Sony. They are like the coolest band in the East Village, best mates of the Strokes, and share a lot of similarities. We went straight from doing Hilary Duff to doing that and now we’re doing Kill Hannah. And then we’ll do Ricky Martin, then Liz Phair and Britney. We go all across the board. But we’re strategic in what we choose to do.

So do you tend to write the lyrics, Graham is the track writer and Scott the engineer? Or is it much more of mix than that?

It’s much more of a mix. If people come around they’ll see us and they see Scott sitting in front of a whole lot of gear and they see Graham with a guitar and they see me sitting with a book. They immediately go, “Oh that’s what they do.” The truth is, the lines are so blurred and Graham will be singing a song to me — (sings) la da da de da da, I’ll never kiss your lips again, I’ll never kiss your lips again — and I’ll go, “Oh I like that!” So I’ll just write it down. And then Scott’s doing the same thing and he starts singing some kind of lyric and I’ll love that, so I’ll write that down. So everything goes in my book that everyone is saying.

When Scott is starting doing drums, I’ll say, “Uh uh, I’m not feeling that groove against the vocal, the kick pattern is wrong.” And Graham is sitting there with his melody and Scott is saying, “More like this at the top line of the chorus; swoop it up so that it starts higher than the last note of the verse.” And we’ll all just blur each other’s lines, and I guess that’s what makes the partnership great. I don’t think we could simulate this partnership with three other people.

My lyrics have gotten better from working with Scott and Graham. Scott, who comes from the hip hop world and now he does pop rock, Ricky Martin, all this stuff so well, I hope that’s because of me and Graham. And Graham plays all these instruments, bass and guitar. Scott is the most amazing person at coming up with guitar parts. We’re kind of like a monster with three heads.

How long did it take you from when you stopped being an artist to when you had you first success as a producer?

Not long. I was 28 when we got signed to Sandy’s publishing company. Sandy signed us to Warners. So it was maybe a year and a half.

Was that in England? I don’t want to make a generalization but I find that America gives you an extra five years over England

I moved to America when I was 20. I’d made two albums in America. If you were in L.A. and you were an artist, and you hadn’t cracked it after two albums, you were washed up. This is a town that wants fresh meat. I was like, “Oh no!” Sandy Roberton saved my career.

That’s a great credit to him. He’s a wonderful guy.

He’s amazing.

Tell me about the female side of it. I’ve worked with a number of female engineers throughout the years and really enjoyed working with them. I thought they brought some civility to the session. And yet, as time goes by, I see that they don’t continue on in the industry, and there’s still very few women producers. I don’t understand what quality might be missing from a woman that might not work in the studio.

I guess just logically, when you say they don’t continue, when women have a baby, being a recording engineer is not conducive to being a mother. And I was really aware that I wanted to have kids and wondered how I could work that out. That’s why forming a company like The Matrix is the perfect thing because Scott met his wife to be and she’s a doctor, Graham and I had two babies back-to-back very quickly, as we started The Matrix. The normal thing that producers do is start in the studio around one or two in the afternoon and go till four in the morning everyday. That’s what we would do when I was pregnant. We’d sleep in the studio — we were nuts! Graham and Scott were kind of party animals. After we had our success we realized that the heat was on and we had so much work to do, we had to make it like a proper job with proper hours. So we started working from ten in the morning to seven at night and we stick to that now.

And you are able to do that with artists? They don’t have a problem with that?

Well, fortunately, we are in the position where we just say that’s what we do. They can show up at twelve and we work till seven. I’m a bit of a nutter, I love to work, so I’ll stop at seven, go and have dinner with the kids, put them to bed, we have a recording studio in the house and when they are sleeping, I go back down and start working. If you are working with a rock band and the guy says I have to be out of my mind and do the vocals at ten at night, I’ll say, “OK, for ten days I’m going to do vocals with you at night.” You have to set boundaries because the music business can completely take over your life.

You guys are like the ultimate producer in that you are almost more the artist than the artist.

Every band is different. What happens is that you have a band like Moony Suzuki and most of the routining and rehearsing of the record was done with them from 10-7. Then we went through a period where Graham was in cutting the band live; we did everything live to tape, no computers, nothing, all vintage gear. Those guys didn’t want to start at ten in the morning. So we’d start about two in the afternoon. So Graham said, “OK, you and Scott do your thing working regular hours and I’ll do the crazy night stuff.” Even then it was only to about one in the morning. And then the ball gets thrown to me, and Sam wanted to do vocals at eight o clock in the evening till midnight, so I would do that, and Scott and Graham were working from ten to seven. We just make it all work. There’s usually a point at the end of the record when we are on deadline. We have to keep our nanny on all week. We might be cranking because we are excited about finishing and all three of us are there until midnight mixing.

Do you mix all your own stuff?

We mix most of it. We always present our mix. We kind of like to get someone else’s point of view on it. Bob Clearmountain has been doing a lot of our stuff, just because he is so amazing.

Do you ever find that the label chooses the remixers’ mixes rather than yours and you don’t think they are as good?

Yeah that happens, but then sometimes our mix gets used like on “Complicated.” Our mix got used on the radio and they put on our mix as well as a hidden track on the record. To be honest, you can’t get too attached to it. A mix is important and sometimes you hear it and you’re like that’s fucked up, that blows, but it’s still a hit.

Sandy said that he feels that you bring something to the situation. When you’re working with an artist, because you’re a female, do you feel they’re more comfortable working with you on vocals?

I think it’s because I’ve been an artist. There’s always a dynamic when you’re a girl and you walk into a room full of guys when I was an artist. There’s that whole them thinking you’re cute thing and stuff. I just cut through the bullshit. We sit around on the couch eating pizza. I hate any formality. I kick my shoes off and have them come sit on the couch with me, right next to me. That initial first week where people are not sure what to say, if it looks uncool. We always say straight away, “We’re going to dare to suck.” It doesn’t matter how bad, let’s just say it. Graham’s very natural but Scott would probably feel that his guard comes down much quicker because of me being there.

So what you are saying is that you think that has more to do with the fact that you were an artist than it does to do with being a girl?

Kind of… and just who I am as a person. My brother’s the same as me. We’re both people that will grab you and give you a kiss when we’ve never met you. We can’t bear all that formality. As far as being a girl, well I definitely know that the artist will come to me if they’re worried about something in their life. And know that I can empathize with them because of what I’ve been through as an artist, and give them advice about that. I know I can get very attached to artists that I work with. Which I am always being told is wrong. I end up being the person they feel like they can call me if they are having a shitty day or whatever. So there is that. Especially the young girls; I’m probably just not very mature, I feel like I can talk on their level. So tell me, do you have a boyfriend? For a start, when I’m working on lyrics with someone I’m like, “So tell me the worst experience you’ve ever had happen with your boyfriend?” I guess I’m nosy. When someone’s asking you questions like that they are thinking, “Oh my god…” And I will say, “Listen: we are trying to write a really great song here so tell me, what was the worst feeling you’ve ever had in your life?” And I try and really get straight through to them. And I hate it because everyone says it’s therapy. You just let them know, “OK, what you say to me, we are going to disguise in a song and I’m not going to tell your Mum about it, I promise.” I always want to know, “Have you ever had sex before?” I’m not particularly interested in working with people if they haven’t had sex.

So they have to go out and do it before they can work with you? (laughs)

(laughs) Well no, but I’m always interested to know what the deal is because it’s a huge part of life that’s missing if you haven’t.

It’s pretty tough to be meaningful in a song if you haven’t.

There is that but what’s amazing, and you always learn as you get older, is that you can learn so much from really young people because before people have had sex the emotions are just as intense. You get heartbroken over somebody. Kids can be so distraught over something that someone said to them. Or that the guy’s not making out with them anymore.

When you write songs, do you try to work something personal from the artist into that song or do you go to them with complete songs?

If we are co-writing with somebody I always try to make them feel involved in the song because they’re the ones who’ve got to go out and sell it and have their face on the record. If it’s all just coming from the three of us they may not feel that attached to it. That doesn’t mean to say that as soon as I hear it starting to sound crap that we don’t just go uh uh. That’s the deal with working with us. If you start to take the song that we started and make it sound crap we’re taking it away. I never say that to the artist before they come in. I’ll just make sure it doesn’t happen it is not an option. Because what will happen is, we’ll get fired.

And you waste a really good chorus or really good verse.

Yeah, because you are trying to appease an artist by making them feel a part of it. No no no no no. Definitely not.

And are you the one that does that in the team?

Yeah probably. I’m kind of the tough one who will say…actually we’re all pretty tough. Can I just tell you something? I’m sure you can relate to this Richard: ‘the more talented the artist the less the ego.’

That is so true

We’ll get a band coming in and it’s their first deal and they’ll think they’re superstars.

That’s so true. If there is one single truism in the music industry that is it. If they’re giants, they’re so modest and humble. Nothing’s a problem. They’ll change anything. Obviously you guys have a lot of power right now, you’ve had very big hits. And clearly anybody coming in is going to respect your work but in the beginning, when you didn’t have this power…

That’s the funny thing — nothing’s really changed. The thing that started with the three of us was this confidence given to us by Sandy. We just thought that if we were going to be successful, we have to not compromise in any way. We would just bust ourselves so much. Just watch the three of us fight and join in; if you are up for it, join in, get in the scrum. The strong artists would. Then something spectacular would happen. But I wasn’t going to do any nice writing sessions where everyone’s perfectly correct and be, “Oh that’s great,” (then quietly) wow that blows. There was no time for that. We were broke. We desperately needed to have success so we went at it feverishly to be good. And as soon as someone did something, if it was me or Scott or Graham or the artist that just wasn’t cutting it, you had to be honest and just say, “I’ve heard that lyric before, I’ve heard that melody before. Let’s do something different. Let’s just push the boundaries.” The artists who were real true artists would say yeah! and they would understand that we’re in this, I mean we call it The Matrix because it means the womb. You’re inside the womb here. It doesn’t matter whose idea gets used here, we just want the best idea, so just jump in and let’s be really brutal about this.

In the beginning it must have been tough financially with the three of you because you are dividing one producer’s advance and royalty three ways. Once you have success it doesn’t really matter, but was that ever an issue?

Not really. At first we were really worried about money. But you have to understand that we are songwriter producers. If there is any advice I could give to producers nowadays is that so much is dependent on the song and your career might live or die by how good the material is that you’re working on. So if you can become a good songwriter, that’s your meal ticket, that’s where you are going to make the money. Most of the money we make is through songwriting.

If you could give advice to women or young girls who are interested in being producers, and I get emails from women wanting to be producers, is there any advice you have?

Yeah. Listen to a lot of music. Analyze what you like about the music you like. Try to study songwriting. Try to get into that. Find a great manager. Find a mentor. Obviously, I don’t come from the angle of being a studio engineer. I know that is one way to go, but it’s not the route that I took. For me, sharing the success and forming a partnership was a key element to me becoming producer. Let me write a great song and let me have a really fantastic engineer and I could probably do it, but I wouldn’t be half as good if I wasn’t with my partners.

It wouldn’t be as much fun either

No (laughs) exactly.

I always loved being in a group, I must admit.

That would be the thing I would say, even if it is like Wendy and Lisa. Find another girl and team up. Unless you are this guru who can do all the technical side of it. Normally, when you meet people, they can’t do everything. Most people are really great with the sonic side of it and that’s probably the place where most women give up because the sonic side of it is where you are sitting around the studio until two in the morning. You are the last person there probably. For women that is probably not the best long term career to have.

You just mentioned Sandy again. What sort of percentages are people paying to their managers today? 10%, 20%?


And from your point of view that’s worthwhile?

If you have the right manager. A lot of managers do nothing for you. When you get a great manager you don’t have any contact with the labels, we’re just creative everyday. I never have to deal with any of that stuff. Sandy is in New York right now doing meetings about us. He says this is what you are working on, they want a song in this kind of vein, like the last song you did, or whatever. He’s out there pounding the pavements, spreading the word — it’s amazing.

You need someone who really believes in you. Otherwise you can be sitting in your studio as we were, and no one knows about you. You are churning out stuff that’s not going to get released anywhere. The whole key to this thing for The Matrix started from the three of us out of desperation going, “What should we do? We can’t be artists anymore!” The three of us sat down and formed this little company and got our lawyer to draw up a production contract and signed those two girls. Sandy came in then and heard it, and went, “Wow the three of you have got something here!” You’ve got to have something to show someone.

I say that all the way through the book, and that’s what I’ve heard you say all the way through the interview. You have got to be proactive. You can’t sit there being creative hoping that someone is going to come and swoop you up.

No. And everyone says how do you get into the music industry and I say, “Well, you know, you just do it.” You just are in it. You are constantly trying to be creative everyday. If you have a day job, in the evening you are recording a band in a rehearsal studio, routining the stuff. You’re just doing it. Eventually most people fall out of the music business and if you keep doing it you probably will succeed.

Thank you so much. Thank you for taking so much time I really appreciate it.

Oh no problem that was fun.